Wi-fi health risks: Yes or No?
Well, what do you think? Should Penang rush into Wifi or should it adopt a very cautious approach, after studying all the scientific concerns? Perhaps we need to probe deeper into why Germany has advised its citizens to avoid Wifi and why the European Parliament has just voted for stricter safety limits.
You decide if it’s safe enough. I guess the difference between Wifi for the whole of Penang and other devices that you buy (e.g. mobile phones) is that in the former you don’t have a choice whereas in the latter, you can choose whether you want to use them.
To recap, this is what the BioInitiative Report says:
No lower limit for bioeffects and adverse health effects from RF has been established, so the possible health risks of wireless WLAN and WI-FI systems, for example, will require further research and no assertion of safety at any level of wireless exposure (chronic exposure) can be made at this time.
And the European Parliament has just voted 522 to 16 for stricter safety limits:
The European Parliament “is greatly concerned at the Bio-Initiative international report concerning EMFs, which summarises over 1500 studies on that topic and which points in its conclusions to the health risks posed by emissions from mobile-telephony devices such as mobile telephones, UMTS, WiFi, WiMax and Bluetooth, and also DECT landline telephones.” Further, it points out the need to “address vulnerable groups such as pregnant women, newborn babies and children.”
Contrast that with this report:
WHO studies Wi-Fi risks
The ProvincePublished: Thursday, September 25, 2008
The amount of non-ionizing radiation absorbed by a person’s body from a Wi-Fi station is less than one-fifth that they receive from FM radio and TVs that surround them day and night, the World Health Organization has concluded.
And the level of non-ionizing radiation — radiation such as light or microwaves that do not cause genetic damage — from the wireless computer routers are between 0.002 per cent and two per cent of international safe-exposure guidelines, the WHO says in a report that considered 10 years of research.
But check out this new research from Sweden:
Children are especially vulnerable to radiation from mobile and cordless phones, Wi-Fi and other devices, because their brains and nervous systems are still developing and since their heads are smaller and their skulls are thinner - the radiation penetrates deeper into their brains.
The Swedish research presented this month at the first international conference on mobile phones and health and represents an analysis of data from one of the biggest studies carried out into the risk that the radiation causes cancer, and was led by Professor Lennart Hardell of the University Hospital in Orebro, Sweden.
This would be enough for me to adopt a very cautious approach, looking out for public health and safety all the time. Few people are against technology, but we need to make sure it’s safe i.e. not harmful in the long run.
This from theSun:
Guan Eng: No proof of wi-fi health risks
By Himanshu BhattGEORGE TOWN (Sept 25,2008) : The Penang government has found no evidence that the open wi-fi transmission network planned over the whole state would pose a health hazard to inhabitants, and will go ahead with the project.
Chief minister Lim Guan Eng said today the economic and social opportunities presented by the project should not be stopped when there is no concrete proof that it is risky.
He stressed that the wi-fi band frequency was, in fact, lower than that for mobile phones.
“Until we are convinced otherwise, we should not stand in the way of technology,” he said.
The Consumers Association of Penang recently expressed concern that a “wi-fi fog” over the state may have adverse radiation effects on people.
“Unless they show evidence that it is indeed a danger, we will work to ensure Penang has opportunities to compete for investments at national and international levels,” he said.
Lim said the state had thus far received objections from two parties against the wi-fi project.
He stressed that he was willing to meet them as the state was concerned about their views.
However, he dismissed having public consultations before embarking on the plan, saying the state’s progress would be dragged if it had consultations for every project.
“Do we need to consult before deciding on the second Penang bridge? We already know the project is helpful,” he said.
Lim said this at a preview of the state’s plan to have WiMAX technology access among internet users in Penang. The WiMAX programme will be run by Packet One Networks (M) Sdn Bhd.
Packet One CEO Michael Lai clarified that the company’s end-user modems, base stations and microwave links to transmit and receive the WiMAX service have received approvals from Sirim.
The service has also received confirmation from the Malaysian Nuclear Agency, he added.
The agency confirmed that the actual radiation levels observed around its P1 W1MAX base stations were below the standard limit for public exposure set by the Malaysian Communications and Multimedia Commission (MCMC) and the International Commission for Non-Ionising Radiation Protection (ICNIRP), he said.
The site radiation assessment was conducted around the WiMAX facility at FSBM building in Cyberjaya.
“Based on both certifications, the public can rest assure that P1 W1MAX poses no demonstrable scientific evidence of a risk to health,” he said.
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Printable version
- Penang govt to widen consultation on wi-fi health risks
- Wi-fi health risks
- More concern about wi-fi radiation
- Guan Eng explains wi-fi/Wimax plan - plus another view
- Other concerns about the wi-fi project
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Anil, you were one of the first to post the ‘negative’ part re. the German scientific finding almost immediately after the announcement of the WiFi launch… perhaps you should also find more evidence and reports to support your argument, what say you? Its like the mobile cellular network transmission tower thing, many said it will increase the cause of cancer from the radioactive field around the transmission tower but mobile phone seems to have taken off like crazy, how?
I am just wondering why the country is still allowing motor vehicles to run on the road. The smoke and co2 produce by these vehicles are health hazard to the public. No NGOs, civil societies coming out in protest against it. And the county is going to build nuclear plant, wow not scare ah?
I think we should all go back to the time, where we walk on foot from places to places or use bullock carts, no bad influence by tv, movie shows, no speading of lies through sms, no telephone so very unite among all races whereby you can help each other when in trouble and the list of good things are plenty.
Common people, you cannot have the cake and eat it as well. The Penang Government can go ahead with the wi-fi plan since there is really no concrete proof of any bad effect. When it is proven, it can be dismantled quite easily. Of cause someone will argue here again that by then many would be affected. Well you have to take chances in life, do you. If not just go to the highest mountain and live there.
since when has malaysian politicians become so environmentally consience? there are more obvious hazards to our daily lives, like high levels of pesticides in veges, high use of fossil fuel, and high rate of smoking among our young adults.
these are established hazards to health but why dont people make more serious effort to solve this. instead we go and chase a shadow which we ourselves do not understand.
Gajah depan mata tak nampak, kuman seberang laut nampak.
alok
Surprised at the defensive way Guan Eng has responded. He also said this, according to Malaysiakini: “Don’t tell me, the state government has to consult the public each time it wants to carry out beneficial infrastructure projects, such as Wifi, Wimax, roads, schools and hospitals?” On the other hand, he did not have any response to findings from research done in Europe. Relax, Guan Eng…don’t act like the BN government by making civil society groups the enemy… engage them.
Dear MALAYSIAN,
ON 27th September 2008 (Saturday) 7.30pm at DATARAN MERDEKA,HINDRAF has arrange a peace full gathering with candle light.
Please be there if you are REAL MALAYSIAN.
Wifi has been spreading all around the world… to date there are yet-to-be-proven scientific data regarding the healthiness in Wifi and so on…
It works both way round, by claiming Wifi unhealthy you lose the technology… by claiming Wifi healthy it probably causes you cancer…
I can’t say who’s right or wrong… I think the government wants to see hardware and thus software upgrade in the state… and to them the health issue is still unclear right now…
of course the other school of thought think the other way round… but unless appropriate funding and researches were conducted, there is still no ground to stop Wifi and Wimax from mushrooming…
==============================================================
On the similar issue, the energy saving light bulb has been claimed as a health disaster since years ago… but yet every greens organisation, the VP Al Gore himself endorsed the use of energy saving light bulb while more and more stories mushroomed about how “unhealthy” the light bulb is…
The stories are still stories… no scientific data and results… the controversy went on and on…
Now will you switch back to conventional light bulb then?
And by the way… one thing we’ve already forgotten to keep tracking… the radiation by the cell phone…
Wifi cause health risk??
Come on..anything we do did carry some risk…Mobile phone can cause lesser sperm count, strong signal make popcorn, motorbike which still runnning 2T oil emitted more harmfull smoke still running around the street, not long agao we still watching CRT TV that produce radiation..why no 1 protest??
Now when PR try to launch something which can make a state more modern, more advance, make more peoples had the chance to gain and explore the vast amount of information from internet…and some clever ask use some so call German report to said it harmful…pls la ..Be mature..
Why so kiasi, kiasu??
For me, I rather shorten my life a little bit so that I can FULLFILL my life with benefit I can gain from internet connectivity…
There shouldnt be any blocking on usage of wifi .. nowdays most of the home user are using wireless router.. Everywhere u go , koptiam , any place offering wifi services , so dont think u can avoid it.. I work in cyberjaya for so many years , wifi all aroound the place ..
I will support CM to implement wifi hub in penang , it will boost the confindence of investor to come and invest and penangties may get free wifi services and kick out streamx ..
Wifi signal is definately lower risk than mobile phone signal ..
Come on…….it causes cancer? How about Char Koay Teow? Nasi Kandar? Hokkien Mee? Mee Rebus? Dont; drive, don’t even take the bus or tram, just walk. Don’t cook since we are burning gas (which is non-replaceable)….the list goes on and on.
I think it is time we be more realistic guys. Picking on this little things when there are bigger things out there! Look at this article from Business Times of Singapore
September 25, 2008, 8.10 pm (Singapore time)
KUALA LUMPUR - Malaysia’s prime minister has offered to quit early so as to avoid a leadership challenge but even that may not be enough for his party which fears losing its 51-year grip on power.
The proposal will be discussed at an emergency meeting of the Supreme Council of the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO) on Friday, the main party in Malaysia’s coalition government, a senior party source told Reuters on Thursday.
Abdullah Badawi had planned to hand over power to his deputy Najib Razak in 2010, but his failure to tackle a resurgent opposition led by Anwar Ibrahim, formerly deputy prime minister in the ruling Barisan Nasional coalition, has caused rifts within UMNO.
The prime minister has been under pressure since elections in March when the opposition scored its best-ever result and won over a third of the seats in parliament.
He has failed to implement key pledges like ending corruption and boosting the independence of the judiciary and his government has been criticised for losing its connection with voters hurt by 27-year high inflation and slowing economic growth.
The 68-year old premier, known as ‘Mr Nice Guy’, has been in charge since 2004 and had wanted to delay the UMNO meeting which will vote on the leadership until next year, said the party source who spoke on condition of anonymity.
‘The 2009 plan and the move to delay the (UMNO) annual meeting may not go down well with the party grassroots,’ said the source.
Malaysia has been ruled by an UMNO-led government since independence from Britain and the challenge from Mr Anwar, who was forced out of government in the late 1990s and then imprisoned on sodomy and corruption charges, is the biggest test it has faced.
Mr Anwar has repeatedly said that he has won over 30 defectors from the ranks of government legislators to join his 82 MPs in parliament and to win a confidence vote against Mr Abdullah, which would allow him to assume power.
However, he has not named the MPs and a self-imposed deadline of Sept 16 for the opposition oust the ruling party has passed. At the same time as he is trying to win power and keep his own three-party coalition together, Mr Anwar is also fighting off another sodomy charge that he denies and says is politically motivated.
When Mr Abdullah first took office he seemed like a new broom, ready to tackle corruption and reform the judiciary. He was seen as a pious Muslim and a simple man.
But under his charge, the budget deficit is set to balloon to 4.8 per cent of gross domestic product this year from a planned 3.2 per cent, inflation has surged to 27-year highs and his government has flip-flopped on key issues like petrol subsidies.
Data released on Tuesday showed RM24 billion (US$7.04 billion) of portfolio money flowed out of the country in the second quarter of 2008 - after the March election - compared with a RM21.1 billion in the first quarter.
The outflow also coincided with a flight from risky assets due to the US banking crisis.
Policy looks set to drift further if a distracted Mr Abdullah, seeking to save face, hangs on until mid-2009. The pressure within UMNO and its coalition partners will continue to grow, analysts said.
The Barisan Nasional (BN) coalition is made up of race-based political parties, representing Malay, ethnic Chinese and ethnic Indian voters. Malays account for over half the population and dominate politics, but UMNO needs the others to hold power.
The smaller Chinese and Indian based parties have seen support ebb away to Mr Anwar’s coalition which has promised to end an affirmative action programme for Malays.
‘If UMNO does not save BN, then it goes down,’ said Ooi Kee Beng a Malaysia expert at the Institute of South East Asian Studies in Singapore. — REUTERS
The non-ionisation radiation mentioned by WHO was a very old criteria used to measure the biological effects of such radiation. Many biological effects can be affected by such non-ionisation radiation. Some of these are raised blood pressure, headache, nauseau etc.
In science when we ask the wrong question we will always get the wrong answer even if the answer is correct. This is because science is blind and to appeal to a blind man for guidance is, frankly, unwise.
Non-ionising radiation may not damage the genes but it does have an effect on the bio-electrical activities in the body and a lot of important biological activities in the body depend on such bio-electrical signaling. When the non-ionising radiation is at a frequency that is readily absorbed by the body the effect is further raised. If you take FM (100 Mhz) where the absorption in the body is minimal and compare it with Microwave frequencies where the absorption by the body is at its peak it is really a disingenious comparison.
We need not get paranoid over an article dug out from somewhere in the net. Nearby at home there are so many articles from Utusan Konsumer published by C A P that if we care we may as well go live on another palnet.
Calm down Mr. Chief Minister. Nothing to rush, sometime it is good if we can get all the input from the experts and just to be sure that the future generation health is protected. May be for this project it’s worth taking the Malay proverb ‘biar lambat asalkan selamat’.But the most important thing is get the task force to study the impact for present and future, not only on health issue but as well as economy, social and may be political. Give it a go Mr Ketua Menteri.
Mr Anil,
What could I say except: If wifi don’t kill us, other things will. Unseen but ever present, there are waves all over the place. From what I learn from engineers in the field of communication technology, each device will be tested by simulating a certain area of the body tissue i.e. brain, skin etc.
It’ll then be analyzed and tuned accordngly. If any device transponder, routers were to be manufactured and deployed, I believe it has gone thru such test.
We’d suggest to the state govt to fund a study after the first area has been wired for net access. I’m sure they wouldn’t say no would they?
I’m sure with tech-savvy people like Jeff Ooi in the govt., they’d be more receptive to our ideas (unlike some old-school politicians who thinks they’re the best)
The Biggest health risk faced by Malaysians is the 3rd class people incharge of public health…………
Deafening silence on :
1. Dairy Products contamination.
2. Chikungunya
3. Dengue
4. Nipah
5. general poor service from the hospital administration.
With these in mind, our health minister still wants to play big shots in Pematang Pauh By-Election.
he should learn to MIND HIS OWN BUISNESS.
Hey, I got a forwarded email about the danger of consuming soya products, how it would cause cancer. After I researched online, I found several contradicting statements.
So, should I drink soya bean or not?
By the way, knives could kill people. Probably we’d just ban them as well, along with C4 of course.
The CM’s uncompromising head-in-the sand stand on the Wi-Fi issue –a subject that will impact on every Penangite’s state of health — smacks of arrogance and apathy, to say the least. One can be forgiven for thinking he’s some high-handed leader from BN!
How can a State Government that professes to be rakyat-friendly be trusted to truly protect the layman, never mind have their interests at heart, when the people’s well-being can be so sloppily dismissed in the name of business interests — as is evident on his comment on the WiFi issue?
I’m sure the CM knows that cigarettes are deadly and that asbestos kills — slowly, but surely. But does he also knwo that scientific proof for this is accepted only many decades after great harm is done to people’s health and needless lives were sacrificed? The same thing may happen in the case of wireless technology and mobile phones too. No verdict on harm now does not mean that the WiFi technology is safe.
The CM should avail himself to all the facts and worldwide concerns on WiFi first before giving a “safe” verdict for the technology.
Aiyoh guys, face it la — Penang is a third world state, we are a bunch of third world people!
We swallow — i mean gobble up every single piece of s*** called “technology and progress” from the West. Doesn’t anybody know what is happening in the West? Anil has unearthed two sets of evidences. One is a research that is doctored by the WIFI promoters and one clearly shows that the European Parliament is seeing red.
Chief Minister, why you listen to Micheal Lai instead of doing your own independent research?
Mr Chief Minister, you don’t need to give us free WIFI to shore up your report card — just you take care of your own children’s well being, please scrap the WIFI idea — cos the blanket smog is not going to spare anyone.
Hey guys, let’s face it we are all a bunch of third world people.
Always, gobbling up every piece of s*** “technology and progress” from the West. Clearly rejected by the West also take — Penang people only read the Star mah!
As long as somebody can make money sure can sell to these bunch of stupid third world people called kiasu penangites. Tsu Koon will surely endorse, … i hope Guan Eng will be more discerning and caring of his future generations.
Hello all - go back into the caves. I suggest the island of redang without any form of telecommunication. No one is shoring up any report cards. NGOs tend to do that often. Give them positions in the state, they complaint. Maybe NGOs should try to remember that they were NOBODY BEFORE MARCH 8. SO shut up…WIFI/WIMAX…I bet none of you uses it all. No wonder you don read emails. I do. So let us be the choice of our own destiny.
cool down ppl…
to b fair, guan eng is right, there is no conclusive proof yet. does it?
as it is, the mobile phone post more danger to people then wifi.. the microwave in our kitchen post even more risk to our health then any of this mobile gadgets. r we banning any of these?
is european contry banning wifi yet? no! it’s proliferating! all that they said is it needs further investigation…
Hi Anil,
It is good that you bring up information on this, to add to public knowledge of risks vs. benefits.
Being in the scientific field myself, I can give you initial impressions on this issue in general. At first blush, the Swedish study may seem alarming, but I have some initial reservations on their methodology. Providing numbers like a “five times increase” can be very very misleading without a precision range of the estimate (or confidence intervals). That gives some very important context. For example, if the confidence limits around the 5-times magnitude ranges from 1.2 times to 8.5 times in magnitude, then it cannot be concluded that the rate of cancer in children are any different from from those who begin to use it in adulthood. It then raises more questions on other lifestyle risk factors that may have played a role, either alone or in combination with wireless radiation, that resulted in cancer.
Secondly, the Swedish study utilized data from a very heterogenous collection of countries and, consequently, demographics. It is important to know what the base rates of these specific types of cancer, both in general and also specific to each country. An across the board synthesis of results can be very misleading.
Thirdly, I can tell you from experience, never take anything you see in a medical journal or said by medical researchers as gospel truth. I’m not saying you did this in your article, but I know many people tend to succumb to the argument to authority….its a natural human tendency. The rate of sub-par clinical research is usually higher than most people believe…that is one reason why you witness a lot of drug recalls in the market.
For now, the conclusions by the WHO are sound, in terms of exposure magnitudes. I will try to look up the article by the Swedish group in the meantime and maybe send you a critique of their methodology soon.
But keep up the good work of raising public awareness on this issue. I am disappointed to see the Penang State Govt getting defensive over this issue rather than taking a proactive stance and engaging the civil society movements.
What the heck! I am being bombarded by wifi radiation in my office 8 hours a day. So do we need to close down all the factories in Malaysia which have wifi???
YAB LGE, please go on with the project!
These kinds of things are the same question as
1) Is eating industrial production of food unhealthy?
2) Is power production contribution to global warming?
When will people get into their head that a single factor like industrial food or wifi does not SIGNIFICANTLY affect health for ALMOST EVERYONE. But take the billions of people, the multitude of genetic preposition and the many other factors, someone is going to be affected by these things.
Its the same old adage that driving or flying safe? People die from it of course everyyear but no one gives it up. Same thing with Wi-fi, no one is going to give mobile internet but the issue really is do you want to make it ubiqutous or those who can afford it only..
An anti-wifi activist came to (assume) Mr. Lim GE to complain about the ill effects of wifi. Mr.Lim said ‘Sorry,I don’t have time now. Can you let me have your handphone number, I talk to you later ? Quickly, the activist gave his hand phone number. Mr. Lim said,’Do you know that the EMF radiation from your phone use for 20 minutes is more than ONE YEAR’s exposure to wifi ?’ The activist made a quick exit.
Overall, I think there are always paranoids out there with their own hidden agenda on any issue.
WiFi affects the internet cable suppliers and other vested interests. FREE WiFi would see massive losses by line suppliers like Celcom (streamyx and similar) and dedicated WiFi suppliers, as well.
Mobile phones have been with us for a long time already. Remember the reports of people having their ears burned and brains fried? WiFi is a proven technology, as well.
If we can accept mobile phones and microwave ovens, WiFi is no different EXCEPT Penang wants to give it FREE. That’s when vested interests begin their work……
My opinion technically, micro wave transmission is a Harzard, just like microwave oven able to cook a chicken at high power.
Well transmission for mobile communication between Hphone or notebooks to the nearest Base Station(transceiver-Transmit & Receive) very low power that’s is why the Mobile companies have to put up alot of Base station bcos the signal is week & low power. The problem is the Base Stations linked to the main centres(Mobile Switching centre) are carried via Micro wave or optical fibre cable(OFC). If they carried thru OFC than no issue of micro wave radiation.
The problem is some telcos do not own OFC network, so they may have to lease from other Telcos which might cost huge RM, so they may opt for micro wave as their carrier, where the Transceivers could be installed on top of residential/commercial buildings close to people.
Penang State intention of putting WiFi is Good but authorities got to play their role in implementation by not compromising Health.
If specs are stictly follow & authorities play their role than I see no issue.
My suggestion, the carrier from Base Station to their switching centres should be Fiber Optic Cable(OFC) not microwave.
If they don’t have OFC Network, than subscribe/leased from other Telcos.
The radiation level of wi-fi is insignificant because the area of coverage is less than 100 meters. In a walled area, you cannot even get beyond 3~4 layers of walls.
Our CRT monitor (where the electron beam constantly strikes a phosphorus surface)radiates more harmful rays than a wifi antenna.
All high-frequency electromagnetic radiation is POTENTIALLY hazardous to your health. That’s the truth, but doesn’t help you to assess the risks.
The potential risk to children, especially, from mobile phone radiation is because - just think about it - you are regularly holding a radio transmitter right next to your brain. Some people talk for hours on a mobile phone. The skull only manages to reduce the strength of the radiation slightly. Children have thinner skulls and smaller brains, so the risk is greater.
Television sets emit potentially harmful magnetic and electromagnetic radiation. But most people watch TV from between 8 to 15 feet from the set - and no evidence has arisen in over 60 years of TV usage that the radiation shortens your life or damages your health in any significant way. Watching TV excessively probably does shorten your life, but that’s a totally different health problem.
Back to Wi-Fi. The signal would be very widespread but of a relatively low strength. Your notebook would be transmitting/ receiving signals, but its not like you normally hold your notebook right next to your brain or body for hours.
I think many commenters mistook the WI-FI signal from their home base station as the issue of contention here. This signal is very weak and cannot go very far. With line of sight at most 100m. What people are really concern with is the transmitting station that could boost the signal to 5 Km. The transponder station generates a lot of radiation. This is the same with handphone station. I think many commenters are talking pass each other.
I won’t be surprise that diseases such as headache, high blood pressure, cancer, neurological diseases etc. are much higher around such stations.
Common lah. Why so kiasi?
Penang is giving FREE wi-fi so that I can cancel off my streamyx. Our CM is actually trying to get these AMNO **** out of business and you are talking about kiasi! Are you still supporting the Barisan?
…
[...] of the concerns have also been reported by Anil Netto in his blog “Wifi health risk: Yes or No?”, “Wifi health risks” and “More concern about Wifi [...]
Study has shown the exposure to mobile phone radiation for 20min equals to the 1year of wifi.
To those overly paranoid people who are so afraid of wifi, let me propose this….
Stop using your cell phone for 20min today, and you get to use wifi for FREE for 1 year, without any incremental health impact. Repeat the same thing every year, and you get FREE wifi for a Lifetime. Of course, this applies to Penang only:-) What a great deal!!! We’re paying about RM80-100/mth to TMNet Streamyx, so you do the math. And you can keep blogging away in forums like this for free!!
So please be practical. Like it or not, even if the radiation threat is real, wifi is not the one to go after. You’ll have to throw away the mobile phones, your microwave ovens, your TVs, FM radio etc etc first.
Meanwhile, great job CM Lim GE!! Please keep up the good work in Penang.
So better all of the NGOs go suck eggs…why? If you think it’s going to affect penangnites..why aren’t you all making any news about this
http://mis-asia.com/news/articles/malaysian-university-rolls-out-new-wireless-wan
Come on lar…..get your facts right. You are just beating round the bushes…..I think it’s time for Cap AND CONCERNED CITIZEN TO BANGUN and check the facts. ………..:)
I think we should concentrate more in local democracy in this issue. WiFi might no problem to health but what is the consultation process that we go though? People should have a say in this issue. Lim Guan Eng said this is a good project no need consultation session, so do 2nd bridge that “help” to reduce jam. What so call good and bad project, from who point of view? Why this company and not other? What is in the contract? We are taking a backward step in this issue by not asking all the details.
Next time when he have another project, so called good project do we want to get involve or just let him decide everything for us? PR government can be another BN government if we not monitoring them all the time and we need to make sure people have a say. We finally reject BN after so long but slowly we let PR government to build up in BN spirit. BN people only try to listen to people in GE, we need to work with PR government to build better consultation and we look forward to restore local election. If PR government is sincerely wanted to restore local election, they should understand the important of consultation process.