Citizen journalists Jimmy Leow and Lilian Chan have managed to get the Penang Bishop’s views on the controversy over the eviction letters issued to villagers residing on the church’s land at St Francis Xavier’s Church along Penang Road.
Just a few quick observations arising from the Bishop’s comments:
It doesn’t look as if the Church has carried out a proper survey of the affected households to establish the residents’ socio-economic status or needs before they were issued eviction letters. The question is, why the urgency to issue lawyer’s letters and evict the residents before carrying out such a survey of their needs, especially those of the senior citizens? Shouldn’t the process have involved extensive consultations with the affected residents, the setting up of arbitration panels and the soliciting of views from lay Catholics – rather than a top-down approach of resorting to lawyer’s letters?
From the Unesco map (download here), it is clear that the village lies inside the heritage buffer zone – and not outside it. The area doesn’t merely have “heritage connotations”; it lies inside the heritage buffer zone. Hence, Unesco heritage guidelines apply.
Still not clear what exactly the Church intends to do with the land in question and the rationale for “centralising” social services all in one location. What about the needs of the poor elsewhere on the island and on the mainland?
The Bishop has called journalists “irresponsible”. But has the church been clear and transparent from the start? Most Catholics still do not know exactly what the church plans to do in the village area. One senior journalist told me he was hoping the bishop would call a press conference so that interested journalists could ask follow-up questions and receive clarification.
This is an email from a biblical scholar who has done studies in Rome in response to Mush and the rest of the comments :
——————————————————————–
Concerning your hypothetical question. Yes it is obvious that the poor backwater person unlike the knowledgeable Christian is more Christ-like.
Your statement
The early followers of Jesus were a world apart from the latter day institution. Strictly obeying the Master’s exhortation that you cannot serve two masters, they followed the way of the Essenes, welcomed poverty, shared all material possessions, and observed strict spiritual discipline. This was inner Christianity.
My comment
“…a world apart from the latter day institution.” True, the institutional church is a later development and the early followers of Jesus were different. This is because, the early followers of Jesus mistakenly expected his immediate second coming where history would be ended. When the Church realised that the second coming of Jesus and the consumation of history would not be immediate, structures and institutions emerged to equip the Church for an indefinite stay here on earth.
“…you cannot serve two masters,…” The world church and the local church does not serve two masters. The Church’s assets and finances are used for the spread of the gospel and for the well-being of the most vulnerable in society. At a conference I attended in 2003 where pastors from all churches attended, (I was there as an observer) the speaker, a pastor from Europe mentioned that when it comes to service to the poor and the underpriviledged, the Catholic Church is currently ahead of all the others and by far.
“…they followed the way of the Essenes, welcomed poverty, shared all material possessions, and observed strict spiritual discipline.” This statement is not entirely true. Similarities shared between the early Christians and the Essenes stem from the common worldview from which both emerged. There are areas where early Christianity and Essene belief are irreconciable based on a reading of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Your question
How did this small Jewish sect become the Christian church, embraced by the same Empire that had sent Jesus to his death?
My answer
Early Christianity was a sect within Judaism. In the days of St Paul who died in 64 C.E, tensions stemming from religious differences developed and deepened if one were to read the gospels perceptively. By the end of the first century C.E, Jews had begun to openly persecute Christians which led to Christianity being separated from Judaism. The Roman Empire persecuted early Christianity. In 312 C.E, Constantine became emperor of the Western Roman Empire giving Christianity legal status. Until then, the Romans considered Christianity illegal. In 322 C.E, Constantine banned the Roman practice of crucifixion throughout the Roman Empire and made sunday a public holiday which is what the modern world inherited. In 324 C.E, Constantine conquered the Eastern Roman Empire and the influence of Christianity spread. Constantine inherited this sympathy for Christianity from his father Constantius whom he succeeded as the emperor of the Western Roman Empire.
Your statement
Early Christianity was hijacked by emperors and medieval heads of state, power-brokers and warlords, and they plunged the church into centuries of religious wars, conquests, brutal persecutions, political intrigues, ambition, strife and greed for power and gold.
Between the 4th and 9th centuries, the Councils of Constantinople comprising emperors and bishops decreed on the faith, deciding for the rest of Christendom all the various tenets and doctrines that define the church. They decreed the doctrine of papal infallibility, not for religious or spiritual reasons, but for power and control. Theodosius in 381 AD decreed that God was made up of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It was a contentious doctrine because the Trinity is not mentioned in the Gospels, and the debate developed into a fistfight. In 553 AD, reincarnation, taught by the Essenes, was expunged from Christian beliefs.
Then there were the Inquisitions, papal as well as the Spanish versions, and the persecutions of heretics, the witch-hunts. Notably, Galileo was persecuted for saying that the Sun did not go around the Earth. It was inconceivable to the church at the time because surely God had made man the centre of the universe!
In 2000, Pope John Paul II acknowledged this ignominious part of the church’s history, issuing a formal apology for all the mistakes committed in the 2,000 years of the Catholic Church’s existence.
My comment
Early Christianity was hijacked by emperors and medieval heads of state, power-brokers and warlords, and they plunged the church into centuries of religious wars, conquests, brutal persecutions, political intrigues, ambition, strife and greed for power and gold. This is not true. Actually, the Catholic Church throughout her history, fought hard to be independent of civil authority and succeeded. The papacy did attempt to declare themselves the final authority in Europe – and above the Emperor at that – and failed. Political intrigues occurred between the papacy and the succession of emperors and medieval heads but the church enagged in political intrigues to preserve her independence from the civil authority.
Between the 4th and 9th centuries, the Councils of Constantinople comprising emperors and bishops decreed on the faith, deciding for the rest of Christendom all the various tenets and doctrines that define the church. This is not true. Although the monarchs called for councils, the decision makings were triggered by bishops and popes. Whenever an emperor imposed his decision on the church, the church through political influences, power play or intrigue reversed the decisions after the emperor’s lifetime.
They decreed the doctrine of papal infallibility, not for religious or spiritual reasons, but for power and control. This is simply untrue. The issue of infallibility was tabled for discussion only at the First Vatican Council in 1869-1870 and in that Council, the bishops forced the pope to acknowledge that papal infallibility is not absolute but nuanced.
Theodosius in 381 AD decreed that God was made up of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. It was a contentious doctrine because the Trinity is not mentioned in the Gospels, and the debate developed into a fistfight. Theodosius decreed something that the Church already believed. True, the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but the concept of Trinity is found in the Bible. Prior to the third century C.E. the terms “the Father” “the Son” and the “Holy Spirit” were used to express the concept of Trinity. Then in the thrid century C.E, Tertullian used the word Trinity to describe “the Father” “the Son” and the “Holy Spirit.” Theodosius only made already existing belief official.
In 553 AD, reincarnation, taught by the Essenes, was expunged from Christian beliefs. I have done studies on the Dead Sea Scrolls and to my knowledge, the Essenes never believed in reincarnation.
Then there were the Inquisitions, papal as well as the Spanish versions, and the persecutions of heretics, the witch-hunts.
These accusations are made by later writers in a more informed age against an earlier generation of church leaders who did not have informed knowledge of the hard or the soft sciences. The punishments that the church imposed were nowhere compared to the rest of Europe. Even torture current in those days was used by the church in ways that had controls that was never practised in the rest of the world that practiced uncontrolled torture. I am not saying that there were no notable fumbles on the part of the church. But the rest of Europe and the Protestant world not to mention the Islamic world were far superior to the church when it came to persecutions and torture of dissenters.
Notably, Galileo was persecuted for saying that the Sun did not go around the Earth. It was inconceivable to the church at the time because surely God had made man the centre of the universe! It is true that the Church persecuted Galileo but the Church were the last to condemn Galileo. When Galileo made known his support of Corponicus’ heliocentric theory, the worldview then being geocentric, Galileo was roundly condemned first by Martin Luther and Philip Melanchton followed by the then scientific community while the Catholic Church took a neutral position.Galileo in fact having made many enemies sought protection from the Church. Many in the Church agreed with the heliocentric theory includinf cardinal Nicholas of Cusa. In a refutation of one of his critics, Galileo a scientist, wrote a paper on how theology should be studied. The church at that time absorbed in conflict with Protestantism for Luther lived when Galileo lived, warned Galileo to write about heliocentrism as a mathematical hypothesis not as established fact since Galileo could not concretely prove heliocentrism right which Galileo agreed to. Galileo then wrote a book defending heliocentrism as established fact while stating in his preface that he intended to condemn heliocentrism. He then took the book to Rome for Vatican approval. Cardinal Ricardi then in charge of approvals simply read the preface and approved the book! That actually triggered the Roman Inquisition imposed on Galileo.
It was inconceivable to the church at the time…Actually it was inconceivable to anybody at that time, Catholics, Protestants and scientists since the then worldview was geocentric.
In 2000, Pope John Paul II acknowledged this ignominious part of the church’s history, issuing a formal apology for all the mistakes committed in the 2,000 years of the Catholic Church’s existence. The pope’s apology was nuanced. He stated that certain things Galileo did within the limitations of the then worldview were wrong while apologising for the way the Church handled the Galileo crisis.
from
Mr. Rufus
——————————————————————-
Thank you
Greg
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
greg,
I notice your one track mind will go to great lengths to perpetuate the vested interests of the Roman Emperor and the Roman Empire.
A true Christian will only serve the interests of Jesus Christ i.e. the values and principles of truth, justice and righteousness.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Can we accept this version of Christianity by this anonymous “Mr.Rufus” as the Gospel truth? Obviously not.
A lot of what he says are simply lies designed by the Roman Emperor Constantine to perpetuate the vested interests of The Roman Empire.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
A fundamental difference between your church of the Emperor Constantine and the early church of Jesus and the Apostles was their methods of evangelization.
While the early church of Jesus, John the Baptist and the Apostles evangelized by healing the sick, your Roman church forcibly conquered peace loving people through bloody wars.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
As for reincarnation,
That is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he told Nicodemus in the Gospels that “you must be born again”.
Moreover, in the Gospel of Thomas, (one of the gospels that was expunged by the Emperor Constantine),
Jesus said, “So through many lives will ye be made perfect”.
Greg, it looks like you have a lot to learn about Christianity!
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Mr Rufus and Greg give the standard, studied answers in defense of the establishment, prisoners of dogma, unwilling or afraid for the chinks of light coming thru their dungeon walls that might wash away the familiar comfort of their beliefs.
The normal Christian view is that Eternity starts from when you were born, and then goes on and on, Forever. The early Christians believed that Eternity stretches both ways, from before you were born, till beyond the grave, that the soul is pre-existent.
From “After Life, What?”, by Robert Pinansky: “Rebirth was believed by many early Christians. Origen taught it. Christ is quoted in the Gnostic scriptures (Pistis Sophia), as saying “Souls are poured from one into another of different bodies of the world.”
In 551 AD, Emperor Jusinian and his council condemned Origen, and slaughtered those who differed.
Following is a quotation from De Principis Origen [AD 185-254]:
“The soul has neither beginning nor end. Every soul comes into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of its previous life.”
The Bible is replete with sayings alluding to a belief in reincarnation.
Malachi4, the last part of the Old Testament, ends with a promise to reincarnate Elijah: “Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse.”
“For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come.” (Matt. 11:13-14)
In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew’s gospel Jesus reiterates it.
“And the disciples asked him, saying, ‘Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’
But he answered them and said, ‘Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand.’
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist.” (Matt. 17:10-13)
That the Jewish people believed in reincarnation is shown by the following interchange of Jesus and the disciples. “When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, ‘Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?’ And they said, ‘Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.” Some believed that John the Baptist had secretly escaped from prison and was preaching under an alias. But many more believed that one of the ancient prophets had been reborn as Jesus. This was because belief in reincarnation was the norm at that time.
“And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, ‘Master, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?’
Jesus answered, ‘Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.’” (John 9:1-3)
The disciples asked Jesus if the man had committed a sin that caused him to be born blind. Given the fact that the man was blind since birth, this would be an unusual question unless pre-existence and reincarnation were an accepted fact. How can a man sin before he is even born? …except in a past life. Note that Jesus didn’t admonish them to say that would have been an impossibility; reincarnation was an accepted fact then.
In the Book of Revelation there is a verse that only makes sense if reincarnation is a fact: “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.” (Rev. 1:7) Those who had a hand in Jesus’ killing will be on Earth when he returns.
“He who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it.” (Rev. 3:12) The meaning is that people who do not overcome the world will have to leave this heavenly temple and return to Earth.
“All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on Earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country – a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” (Heb. 11:13-16) Opportunity to return: reincarnate back on Earth, for those who longed for or desired Earthly life.
From the Old testament, that nothing is ever wasted , all of nature is recycled, all life repeated: “Generations come and generations go, but the Earth remains forever. The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again … What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” (Eccl. 1:4-9)
In Ecclesiastes, the writer makes a reference to the reincarnation concept of a “veil” that causes people to not remember their past lives: “Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow.” (Eccl. 1:7-11)
“If a person dies will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.” (Job 14:14)
Job again: “Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither.”
Moses said: “Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men….Thou carriest them away like a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up [again]….in the evening it is [again] cut down.”
Very many saints wrote and spoke about reincarnation. Saint Gregory of Nyssa (257-332):
“It is absolutely necessary that the soul should be healed and purified, and if this does not take place during its life on earth it must be accomplished in future lives.”
Saint Clement of Alexandria (150-220): “We were in being long before the foundation of the world; we existed in the eye of God, for it is our destiny to live in Him….Not for the first time does He pity us in our wanderings, He pitied us from the very beginning….Philolaus, the Pythagorean, taught that the soul was flung into the body as a punishment for the misdeeds it had committed, and his opinion was confirmed by the most ancient of the prophets.”
Saint Augustine (354-430): “The message of Plato, the purest and most luminous of all in philosophy, has at last scattered the darkness of error, and now shines forth mainly in Plotinus, a Platonist so like his master that one would think they lived together, or rather-since so long a period of time separates them-that Plato is born again in Plotinus” (Contra Academicos).
“Say, Lord, to me…say, did my infancy succeed another age of mine that died before it? Was it that which I spent within my mother’s womb?…and what before that life again, O God my joy, was I anywhere or in any body?” (Confessions).
There are huge volumes, and I fear I bore the reader.
This should suffice to keep Greg busy for a while. He is so adamant not to look beyond the four walls that lock him in, that he will be furious.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I should thank Mr Rufus for correcting my history lesson on papal infallibility. No, Greg, I did not glean these off at MPH or wherever. It’s been more than thirty years… memory slips.
Ok, Council of Constantinople, First Vatican Council… my point was precisely that: COUNCIL. Countless council after council after council thru the centuries. You don’t need grand meetings of humans to sit, deliberate, make tomes and tenets. Humans bring to the table their frailties and their own agendas, good or not so good. Doesn’t then make the church one huge created entity, liable to misconstruction because things were decided by talk and debate [and in the early days, by force and fists]? What is there to pontificate or argue about Jesus’s very simple instructions, about love and forebearance, humility, compassion, devotion…?
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
And, I daresay, if it hadn’t been for Councils, the recognition that life precedes birth might still be a Christian belief. Look at the newest quantified research into reincarnation! Many thousands of cases, hundreds, perhaps thousands of studies. You can refuse to look truth in the eye, you can cower and say this is the work of the devil, or you can say, isn’t life grand and wondrous? Isn’t it marvelous that the very ancient texts are being verified and borne out by researchers today?
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
To – Christians against Zionism
At least MUSH took the trouble to korek dunno where her ‘facts’ could you also tell us your resources about what u have mentioned :
(A lot of what he says are simply lies designed by the Roman Emperor Constantine to perpetuate the vested interests of The Roman Empire.)
Can u explain which of it are lies and what is your basis. Perhaps you can shed the light on the truth. At least Mr Rufus has explained and given facts. If you cant don’t be an insulting pest.
(While the early church of Jesus, John the Baptist and the Apostles evangelized by healing the sick, your Roman church forcibly conquered peace loving people through bloody wars.)
Which are the wars?? Are you saying the holy war?? well even if you say it is the holy war you are still wrong definitely. My history lecturer would throw the book on your face asking you to go read it again. Shed some light if u can.
(I notice your one track mind will go to great lengths to perpetuate the vested interests of the Roman Emperor and the Roman Empire.)
I don’t see any reason for them to do so. The empire does not exist. Maybe you are fighting against an empire which does not exist. Can you explain and give some light on what are those vested interest please? I think we all would like to know. Oh yeah give some reasons and facts please. I see this is an intellectual talk so if u are unable to do so then i would say go become one then qualify yourself to come and discuss.
(A true Christian will only serve the interests of Jesus Christ i.e. the values and principles of truth, justice and righteousness.)
The Catholic church is already doing this so there is no question if you are condemning the Catholic of not doing it. You are being selectively blind. The Catholic church fights for all your have said above more than any other religious or non-religious organizations. Simple example the fight for the usage of Allah here in Malaysia. The Popes support for a two state solution in Palestine.
MUSH
Literally it seems that Christians ought to believe in re-incarnation. Look into the historical background of those writings to understand it better for only then you would understand the basis of why such explanation was written. Go yourself and do the research on the scrolls found in the Temple of the book in Jerusalem and see for yourself. Vatican did not hide any scrolls nor they own any, they don’t have too for they do not fear anything.
The Catholic Church is the true church
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
“The punishments that the church imposed were nowhere compared to the rest of Europe. Even torture current in those days was used by the church in ways that had controls… But the rest of Europe and the Protestant world not to mention the Islamic world were far superior to the church when it came to persecutions and torture of dissenters.” from Mr Rufus
‘We only pulled out one fingernail; he’s still got 9 left. And we didn’t touch his toes…’ is that it? A spokesman for the Master [who taught us to love our enemies] saying the church only performed controlled torture?! My Gawd! Don’t wag the dog!
I am not interested in selling one church or one religion over another. My point, from the beginning, was that any institution is created by humans, and will inevitably be coloured by the human condition. But if you want to follow the Master and fill your heart with so much love till it breaks, then you can do it from outside any institution.
True Church, you get my point? Give up religosity for spirituality. Religions take us to war; we’ve been doing it for thousands of years.
If the Catholic Church is your answer, provides the external order and frames the beliefs for you to traverse the journey, very good. I am not knocking that at all. But please note, you might have entered the church, knelt on the pew, but when you really want to connect in prayer, you close your eyes, shut your senses to the holy pictures and statues, the candles, transcend all that’s external, and you touch God… inside you!
Did he not say “I stand at the door of your heart and knock?” Or, “Verily, heaven is in YOU!”
If God is omnipresent and fills every inch of space and time, can he not be found outside church? And in his omnipresence, isn’t he also in you!? In fact, the journey that’s required is one of consciousness, transcendance of the ego-sense or the sense of I.
And if you love humanity so much you’d share your meagre meal with a thirsty, hungry stranger, then my digressions from Anil’s original subject have come full circle… you’d be akin to that blessed soul I imagined in a remote village who might not have heard of Jesus, but indeed brought Jesus into her house and fed him.
Bless you.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
“Controlled torture”! Ha ha! Funny, though it wouldn’t have been much fun to the recipients!
Sounds like George Bush’s Guantanamo. I wonder if those guys in the Middle Ages have come back (reincarnated) as the neo-cons. Bush was a Pope then, and Cheney and the others did the other work.
This talk about about councils and what-nots reminds me of UMNO and Hindraf. How can mere conferences of humans presume to decide on matters of God and Heaven!?
Thank you, Mush, for the illuminating pieces. They were touched with humour and compassion.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
If Greg had been around in the Middle Ages, he might have been very busy with his pliers! Ha ha! (Only one fingernail…! Still got 9 more!) Mush, you’re hilarious!
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
MUSH you really have something against the church is it. What Greg and Mr Rufus was just correcting your history which is something you wanted to hear. Guess that Assesne hypothesis suited your perception of the church and you have deemed it yourself to be the correct history. As u have mentioned even the pope has ask for forgiveness for the past negativity of the church. No one is deniening it and by reading greg and rufus comments they are not denying it. Greg has mentioned before that he does agree that the church did bod things before and he also mentioned that he did not deny it so whats the problem.
It is you skoo who lives in the middle ages. You are all looking at the bad things the church did in the middle ages. Are they doing it now??? You guys lack the forgiveness to the church and hold onto the bad things it did 500 hundred years ago. Who is lving in the middle ages??? What has happend has happend no one can change it d. Greg, rufus and me dont deny any of it either.
well you people might not like to have or join any organisations because you feel that your own democracy ir curtailed. Having such organisations in this world is good. If everyone is a free bird much worst things could happen. Unity itself will shatter and you would find more wars.
Religion brings war???? wow!! Fine dont have religion then. If you dont like religion be an aethist dont selectively rape or rob all the other religions taking only what suits you. (Disregard) Jesus, Naib s.a.w, Lord Muruga and all. Deny all of them. DOnt use the bible too.
It is like hypocrasy. You follow the bible but dont follow the church that compiled the bible. All wars caused by religion?? What would the future be like without religion. Dont look at yourself but the whole world.
And there is a failure to see the difference between human and church. Does the Catholic Church theach you to go to war?? What does the Cathoilc Church teach? Ask yourself? ANything wrong with it? So if there is wrong doing dont you think it is human. IF they say they are doing something (wrong) according to the bible then since you have acces you got the power to question them right?
I dont like to follow sendirian berhad believes of people of the bible. To compare them with the church who have compiled the bible and grew up with it they have a much more better understading of it with more reliable interpretation.
Mush and the gang does not seem to answer any of the questions brought forward by greg and the gang so i dont think any of mine will be answered too. Guess this discussion from land issue would further deviate.
Dont like the church break away. Now you see the ammount of splinter churches??? All say they follow the bible but actually follow their own selfish interpreatation. The church interpreates God’s message to all of us consistenlty since the ages.
It looks like greg and gang do know better history compared to skoo, jerry and mush. Mush gang just love the hypotheses of the cristian history which is still in debate even among the other hypotheses just because it fits well with their eagerness to spike the church. Why do you all hate the cuurch that Lord God Jesus instituted? Why do you break away from it? Rape and hijacking of the believes of the cristinaity tought to you all by the church and then killing it. Haihs….
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
If one says he is of a particular religion then follow it devotely and dont selectively follow its teachings and spike the rest and those who teach them. Also select the teachings which only suites one and furthermore some would end up propagating that. This only causes further division.
For all the doctirines and beleieves that the church teachers us about Christ and his mission has its basis and it does come from the bible it compiled, of which the explanations given is simply there in its catechism. It also includes traditions, ways of life and accomodates the human nature in them. So there is no question that the church has detach itself in its teachings from the community. The community is part of the Catholism and this also what that has shaped it.
Example : Some protestants groups still think and teach to their followers that catholics pray to Mother Mary. Well this of course is not true, but see, this question still goes around. Why?? Some just dont want to accept the answer and this no one can do anything.
Salvation is for all and we should not only seek salvation selfishly just for ourselves. We seek it together. This is also why there are churches and other places of worship for people to come together to worship God. It is mentioned in the bible – Where there are 2 or 3 GATHERED in my name i would be in their midst.
“This talk about about councils and what-nots reminds me of UMNO and Hindraf. How can mere conferences of humans presume to decide on matters of God and Heaven!?”
“mush on July 2nd, 2009 at 2.58pm”
— read Matthew 17.
It is with these councils you have your bible and also has saved guarded Christ Teachings if not then we would currenlty have a million more divisions. Some believing Jesus as an freedom fighter etc etc. Guess the debates that started 1000 yrs ago still goes on today.
Well talking about one track minded – greg n the gang dont seem to be cause they have explained with facts knowing at the same time the existance of other perspectives of the relgion. Furthermore they are unlike those who interpret writtings literally. If you claim them to be one track minded then so are you in your own track.
In the end no matter who beleieves what as long as its good and not destrcutive in the long run to one another then so be it. Let God be the judge.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
I LOVE THIS CHURCH
In the course of a half century,
I have seen more Christian corruption
than you have read of.
I have tasted it.
I have been reasonably corrupt myself.
And yet, I love this Church,
this living, pulsing, sinning people of God
with a crucifying passion.
Why?
For all the Christian hate,
I experience here a community of love.
For all the institutional idiocy,
I find here a tradition of reason.
For all the individual repressions,
I breathe here an air of freedom.
For all the fear of sex,
I discover here the redemption of my body.
In an age so inhuman,
I touch here tears of compassion.
In a world so grim and humorless,
I share here rich joy and earthy laughter.
In the midst of death,
I hear an incomparable stress on life.
For all the apparent absence of God,
I sense here the real presence of Christ.
– Walter Burghardt, S.J.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
My call to you today is that you be available to the Lord. Let us put God at the centre, ever attentive to his voice, Ever asking what we can do for his more effective service, And doing it to the best of our ability, with love and perfect detachment. Let us cultivate a very personal awarness of the reality of God…. by Fr Pedro Arrupe.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
We don’t hate the church but we hate evil doers disguising themselves as christians.
What we are trying to do is to concientize christians to come back to the true church and teachings of Jesus, John the Baptist and the Apsotles.
We hope that the church today does not turn into another Pharisee like institution that perpetuated the vested interests of the powerful elite during the times of the early church.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
And we ARE NOT TRYING TO START A NEW CHURCH!
Get that drummed into your dumb head.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Seehon quoted Pedro Arrupe. Allow me to reproduce it below, but with capitals to highlight the essence of what Jerry and Mush and several others have been trying to say.
“My call to you today is that you be available to the LORD. Let us put GOD at the CENTRE, ever attentive to HIS VOICE, Ever asking what we can do for his more effective service, And doing it to the best of our ability, with LOVE and PERFECT DETACHMENT. Let us cultivate a VERY PERSONAL AWARENESS of the reality of GOD.”
Where, by any stretch of the imagination, can you say they deviated? They were saying that institutions can be faulty, but one should try cultivate the “VERY PERSONAL AWARENESS” of God in one’s heart.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Now you know why it is said it is more dangerous to talk about religion than to enter a roomful of gunpowder with a lighted match! We have more than enough religious pretensions to make many, many wars, but not enough God in our hearts to love one another!
Seehon also quoted a Walter Burghardt, S.J., who waxes lyrical about why he loves the church. Very good. Anything that brings a person closer to peace and love for humanity is a candle lit against the darkness. Some other soul might find his peace and love in a solitary life, not needing a human institution. Who am I to make any pronouncement, any judgement, about what is really just an intensely personal thing between him and his Maker?!
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Came across this entirely by accident. Conspiracy theorists will have their say on this, and the Gregs and Mr Rufuses will decry it and have another fit. Make what you want of it.
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/io.htm
The Murder of John Paul I
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Actually, I hesitated to post the above, afraid that I’d start another round of vehemence and name-calling and further quotes from the Holy Book invoking fire and brimstone.
It’s strange but pathetic that something somebody writes can unleash such anger from people whose Master said, Love is the greatest commandment.
That’s why I say make what you want of it. Shrug it off as lunacy, fantasy or fiction for all I care, or say, hmmm, that’s interesting… Makes no difference to me. Doesn’t change my world. Make no apologies for the Truth, whatever it is.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
Finally we have come to an understanding. I defend my faith for i believe in it from those inside and also outside it. Despite its lacking in certain areas i feel the same as Walter Burghardt, S.J.
Despite having our different opinions hopefully we come to follow what Padre Arrupe says. As we hope and pray the church does not turn into a pharisee like institution lets us also not view it as a bad boy too. Me and those on my side wont have a fit reading that link and all (used to it). Our faith on Catholicism and all it comprises actually grew even more stronger as we learn through them. We find more truth through those untruth (without biased mind excuse me). I grow to love God and mankind more when i look through them.
“It’s strange but pathetic that something somebody writes can unleash such anger from people whose Master said, Love is the greatest commandment.”
This is something normal, not to be felt strange of. It is like some one talking bad about ones own loved one and getting angry. When we love, as we speak and write have love too transpiring through the message of what is written and spoken. If there is none then retaliation is expected.
“That’s why I say make what you want of it. Shrug it off as lunacy, fantasy or fiction for all I care, or say, hmmm, that’s interesting… Makes no difference to me. Doesn’t change my world. Make no apologies for the Truth, whatever it is.”
Be responsible of what u say but even after explaining people still dont listen then u can say the above.
Thank you True Church, seehon and rufus and also the rest of you Jerry, mush etc etc for a good discussion.
eh skoo i got better tools to remove nails want to see them? hahaha LOL.
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0
greg,
You should use your tools to remonve YOUR nails!
It’s people like you who are a stumbling block to building the “kingdom of God on earth”.
Remember the Lord’s Prayer:
“Our Father in heaven,
Holy be Your name,
Your kingdom come….”
Complain about this comment
Like or Dislike:
0 
0